tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post7449025704450733450..comments2024-03-26T01:10:13.720+00:00Comments on Teach Me Tonight: Michele Hauf: The HighwaymanE. M. Selingerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00426524354823232002noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-7463298569552639032009-09-22T09:50:55.477+01:002009-09-22T09:50:55.477+01:00"I wonder if this is related to the rather un..."<i>I wonder if this is related to the rather uncomfortable (to me) concept of having the 'destined partner</i>.'"<br /><br />That sounds very plausible to me. I suppose if a couple are depicted as being "fated mates," "soul mates" or, as you put it "destined partners," then any previous relationship isn't going to be as good. And you're right that it would seem to tie in with the concept of the GHH. Since romances tend to present sex between the hero and heroine as "making love" rather than as pure lust/sex, there would seem to be a spiritual aspect to the way the GHH works. No doubt this explains why some characters in romances may barely know each other at the end of the novel (perhaps because the courtship takes place over a very short period of days) and they can seem to have little in common other than what appears to be sexual attraction, but the reader is still supposed to believe that they'll live happily ever after.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-44408680175821379502009-09-21T20:38:23.217+01:002009-09-21T20:38:23.217+01:00The problem with rakes is that if you were going t...<i>The problem with rakes is that if you were going to write a more realistic portrayal you might have to include syphilis and other sexually transmitted diseases as well as illegitimate children. And maybe I'm a bit cynical, but how many rakes really did reform because they found True Love?</i><br /><br />So true. It's a very common motif in Regency Romances, though, one which I've always considered somewhat questionable. <br /><br /><i>Sometimes the specialness is emphasised by denigrating previous relationships. </i> <br /><br />I wonder if this is related to the rather uncomfortable (to me) concept of having the 'destined partner.' Using this concept to explain away the above one could be considered a variant on the GHH, but in a....spiritual sense, I suppose.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-26647426315905175612009-09-17T21:21:44.318+01:002009-09-17T21:21:44.318+01:00"I hadn't given much though to the fact t..."<i>I hadn't given much though to the fact that it's often also a 'first' for the hero</i>."<br /><br />Romances often emphasise how special this particular relationship is for both characters, I think. It's understandable, really, since it wouldn't be very romantic if they didn't both feel the relationship was special.<br /><br />The sex-with-the-heroine being special and a "first" for the hero also ties in with the idea that "having sex" is somehow experienced as being different from "making love."<br /><br />Sometimes the specialness is emphasised by denigrating previous relationships. I remember a conversation on a thread at AAR, for example, about the way that widows (and sometimes widowers) usually end up comparing their new love with their old. I think I'd prefer it if they didn't do that, but just thought of both as special, in their different ways.<br /><br />"<i>Or whether presenting a more realistic protrayal of previously promiscuous men (AKA Rakes) and their sexual expectations might be a nobler thing to do as a writer.)</i>"<br /><br />The problem with rakes is that if you were going to write a more realistic portrayal you might have to include syphilis and other sexually transmitted diseases as well as illegitimate children. And maybe I'm a bit cynical, but how many rakes really did reform because they found True Love?<br /><br /><i>I also had never run across the concept of the 'Glittery HooHa,' which...once I stopped laughing...I realized I had encounted in novels....and then I laughed some more</i>. ;o)<br /><br />I was really amused, and then intrigued by it when Lani Diane Rich, in that post on Jenny Crusie's blog, introduced me to it. I've been doing quite a bit of work on the GHH, and the theory does hold up to further academic scrutiny, as well as being funny. Like you said, it's definitely there in a lot of novels.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-70719893218211896422009-09-17T17:58:50.382+01:002009-09-17T17:58:50.382+01:00Kathleen, I'm intrigued. What kind of thoughts...<i>Kathleen, I'm intrigued. What kind of thoughts did the post provoke?</i><br /><br />Forgive me for taking so long to answer, but I've been busy. (As we all are, I know.)<br /><br />I've read romance for a long time, but have only recently started writing in that vein. Unfortunately, I've done very little study about the issues behind romance. <br /><br />While I've always been aware of the tendency in romance of having the heroine in her 'first' sexual relationship (whether actual or emotional), I hadn't given much though to the fact that it's often also a 'first' for the hero. <br /><br />That realization made me sit beck and think about relationships both in books that I've read and enjoyed, and in my own writing. So my thought has been consumed mostly in contemplation of how authors I admire have achieved that...and whether it should be done at all. (Or whether presenting a more realistic protrayal of previously promiscuous men (AKA Rakes) and their sexual expectations might be a nobler thing to do as a writer.)<br /><br />I also had never run across the concept of the 'Glittery HooHa,' which...once I stopped laughing...I realized I <i>had</i> encounted in novels....and then I laughed some more. ;o)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-10723205910458485612009-09-14T11:14:50.799+01:002009-09-14T11:14:50.799+01:00"fiction can indeed teach or influence by rei..."<i>fiction can indeed teach or influence by reinforcing concepts that readers encounter in their daily lives</i>."<br /><br />I agree with you about that, and I quoted you <a href="http://teachmetonight.blogspot.com/2009/09/tale-of-two-or-more-tanyas.html#c2633316086050648299" rel="nofollow">the other thread</a>. I'm a little bit more ambivalent about whether or not authors "ought to be aware" of this, because I wonder if it would inhibit some authors too much if they thought about this kind of thing in detail while they were actually writing. Perhaps it would depend on the stage of the process at which the thinking took place. Clearly some authors do think quite a lot about such issues.<br /><br />"<i>Is it the author's responsibility what people take from their works? Tricky question, but I think my personal answer is yes. So if an author plays into the idea that sex is shameful for women and good women don't enjoy it until the meet the magic male with the magic appendage that suddenly makes the heretofore shameful act 'right' and reflect that attitude in their writing, I find that message harmful</i>"<br /><br />This really ties in with something I was trying to untangle on the other thread. I'd be interested to read your comments on that. I wonder if there's a difference of opinion based on (a) how emotionally involved different people are when they read, and/or (b) whether they read such scenes as "sexual fantasy" or whether they read them as being real within the world of the story.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-73232754245081029932009-09-14T00:05:07.902+01:002009-09-14T00:05:07.902+01:00I don't believe that authors set out to 't...I don't believe that authors set out to 'teach' things in their writing, but I think they ought to be aware that their fiction can indeed teach or influence by reinforcing concepts that readers encounter in their daily lives.<br /><br />The underlying cultural assumptions or the overturning of established cultural rules or taboos are noticed and internalized by the reader, either with agreement or with disagreement and most often that's entirely subconscious, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.<br /><br />Is it the author's responsibility what people take from their works? Tricky question, but I think my personal answer is yes. So if an author plays into the idea that sex is shameful for women and good women don't enjoy it until the meet the magic male with the magic appendage that suddenly makes the heretofore shameful act 'right' and reflect that attitude in their writing, I find that message harmful, whether they set out to convey that particular message or whether their writing just reflect their own cultural imprinting.<br /><br />I'm still not entirely convinced that my first encounter with the perfect male in fiction as a teen hasn't ruined me for real life, grin (Auel has a lot to answer for! :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-59629525934833036212009-09-12T12:57:46.676+01:002009-09-12T12:57:46.676+01:00I think there are a mixture of heroines in the gen...I think there are a mixture of heroines in the genre as a whole, and some have had active sexual lives before meeting the hero and don't feel shame about it. There are still plenty of virginal ones, too, and then there are the ones somewhere in the middle, and I wonder if they're the result of authors trying to negotiate the contradictory cultural pressures which are personified in the other two.<br /><br />In addition, I suspect that a great many authors don't set out to "teach their female readers" anything. So if their primary goal is to entertain, some aspects of their writing will be more thought through than others.<br /><br />Michele Hauf's <a href="http://dustedbywhimsy.blogspot.com/2009/09/is-that-what-i-was-trying-to-say.html" rel="nofollow">written a response to this post</a>, and she says there (with what I suspect is a touch of irony/sarcasm) that<br /><br /><i>I had no idea I was thinking some of that stuff while I was writing The Highwayman. Well, I know I wasn't. ;-) Some stuff rings a bell for me. Yep, I was really playing with the fact Aby was sexually innocent even while her job was basically some kind of sex-worker. The forced seduction/rape stuff didn't even come to mind.</i><br /><br />Re the poem, I think it was very wise of you not to read it if you only want HEAs. It's rather sad and gory. I suppose someone could argue that if the hero and heroine are both ghosts together that could be construed as a HEA, but it doesn't feel happy to me.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-59444868973743143182009-09-12T04:10:18.014+01:002009-09-12T04:10:18.014+01:00I tried to post this this morning but it didn'...I tried to post this this morning but it didn't go through. Trying again.<br /><br />I can see where it's coming from, too, Laura. What I don't and can't understand is why female writers <br /><br />perpetuate this feeling of shame and by implication teach their female readers that it's still not okay to <br /><br />be a sexual being unless it's within the context of some made up paranormal world and even then it seems to <br /><br />me, in this book, the heroine never really enjoyed it until the magic hero shaft came along. That whole <br /><br />concept irks me tremendously. <br /><br />I live in the southern U.S. and yes, I've heard about the purity balls and assorted other psycho imprinting <br /><br />of young females. Especially in light of this cultural regression, I really don't want to read the implied <br /><br />'only a pure woman is a good woman', too.<br /><br />Thanks for the explanation of the title. I opted not to check out the poem. I need my HEAs in fiction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-83233365170666286882009-09-11T15:13:06.261+01:002009-09-11T15:13:06.261+01:00Yes, I remember we read it at school. The poem'...Yes, I remember we read it at school. <a href="http://www.potw.org/archive/potw85.html" rel="nofollow">The poem</a>'s sort of paranormal too, but other than that the two works don't have much in common.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-70223065974494287312009-09-11T15:05:52.133+01:002009-09-11T15:05:52.133+01:00There's a famous narrative poem, one that used...There's a famous narrative poem, one that used to be a standard schoolroom recital piece, called "The Highwayman." A love story, although tragic rather than heading for an HEA. It's actually about self-sacrifice to protect one's beloved, but as you'll see, the gender roles are rather different.<br /><br />You can find it here: http://www.potw.org/archive/potw85.html.E. M. Selingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00426524354823232002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-30110527675292273462009-09-11T14:42:13.104+01:002009-09-11T14:42:13.104+01:00"I'm left with one burning question: &quo..."<i>I'm left with one burning question: "Why is this book called 'The Highwayman?" From what you describe I cannot see any explanation for the title</i>."<br /><br />In her letter to the reader Hauf writes that<br /><br /><i>One of the sexiest images to me is the lone highwayman waiting alongside the road for an oncoming carriage, anticipating the riches he can steal with a flash of a pistol or a seductive smile. But he's selfless, robbing from the rich and giving to those in need, getting by on only what he needs to survive. My hero is all that</i>"<br /><br />In a flashback to "Paris - 1758" Max describes himself and his partner in crime as "The most successful highwaymen in all of France" (31) and there's a description of how they held up and robbed a coach carrying "five heavy, metal coffers of gold and silver coin destined for Versailles" (30).<br /><br />In the present, however, Max doesn't work as a highwayman any more. It seems to be more of a nickname now, though he does still steal things sometimes and give them to charity. Mostly he drives around in a "black '68 Shelby Mustang" (10) and kills demons with a specially adapted whip.<br /><br />"<i>I never figured out the whore/madonna problem, or rephrased, why women writers feed that stereotype imposed by men on womanhood in their writing geared to fulfilling female fantasy</i>"<br /><br />I can see where it comes from, in historical/cultural terms, and for many women that kind of shame about their sexuality is still a very real thing. The sexual double standard still exists, and in some places people hold "purity balls" for girls during which they pledge to stay virginal until marriage. At the same time, there can be a lot of pressure on girls and young women to look sexy, and to sexually fulfill a male partner.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-83469283836238019662009-09-11T12:21:39.153+01:002009-09-11T12:21:39.153+01:00I'm left with one burning question: "Why ...I'm left with one burning question: "Why is this book called 'The Highwayman?" From what you describe I cannot see any explanation for the title.<br /><br />As a non-reader of paranormal romance, I admit to a decided bafflement of this interest in having your cake and eating it, too, with regard to sexual intercourse/purity. I never figured out the whore/madonna problem, or rephrased, why women writers feed that stereotype imposed by men on womanhood in their writing geared to fulfilling female fantasy.<br /><br />I find it outright insulting and I really wish they'd stop going there.<br /><br />Feels wishy=washy to meAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-75903858378839802312009-09-11T09:51:03.897+01:002009-09-11T09:51:03.897+01:00"Probably don't have unslightly body hair..."Probably don't have unslightly body hair .... all in all very sanitised."<br /><br />I get the impression that vampires are like that too, but then they're often contrasted with were-creatures, who do have many of the animalistic features which the non-smelly, non-hairy, possibly non-living paranormal creatures don't have.<br /><br />Kathleen, I'm intrigued. What kind of thoughts did the post provoke?<br /><br />My impression is that with genres such as paranormal romance, but also (and perhaps to a greater degree) speculative fiction, there's a lot of opportunity for the author to create her/his own world. <a href="http://aliendjinnromances.blogspot.com/2009/07/world-building-for-writers-politics.html" rel="nofollow">Linnea Sinclair's said that</a><br /><br /><i>The problem with writing in our current time period (give or take a dozen years) is that we’re so used to our “world” we forget the elements that build it</i>.<br /><br />I don't think it's necessarily the case that authors of contemporaries (or historicals) "forget the elements that build" the world in which they're setting their stories, but there are definitely more constraints placed on the world-building because of the demands of accuracy. If an author's making up a whole world, she/he has to make it internally consistent, but otherwise can make lots of things different from current reality.<br /><br />Sometimes, as in Hauf's novel, those differences can mostly be used to intensify elements that exist in contemporary and historical romances. That's an entirely valid choice, and I can see why it would be appealing to so many authors and readers.<br /><br />In paranormal romance there seems to be a freedom to enjoy some things which might be considered "politically incorrect" in the real world, and so are relatively toned down in most contemporaries/historicals. The dream-rape/forced seduction's a case in point. You don't find very many rapes or even forced seductions in other parts of the genre any more, but there's perhaps more leeway in paranormal romance because it's so clearly "not real." Or to give another example, behaviour that might seem creepy and stalkerish in a real man is seen (at least by some readers) as romantic and protective when a sparkly vampire is involved. Or werewolves and other were-creatures "may not be in a human form for sex, which can really push boundaries," <a href="http://paranormalromanceblog.com/2009/09/01/author-michele-hauf-on-werewolf-sex/" rel="nofollow">as Hauf has observed</a>.<br /><br />So in that sense the paranormal allows readers and authors to explore desires/scenarios which are forbidden or less tolerated in the real world.<br /><br />Writing a paranormal opens up other possibilities too, and I'm sure some authors of paranormal romance enjoy the opportunity to make things very different from the real world, so that the novel involves a thought experiment via the creation of a society (or group of societies) with very different moral codes/political ideologies/social norms from our own.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-62985711436738455162009-09-11T01:47:38.623+01:002009-09-11T01:47:38.623+01:00A very thought provoking post. Thanks. ;o)
J. K...A very thought provoking post. Thanks. ;o)<br /><br />J. Kathleen CheneyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-32116465425991156802009-09-10T23:51:25.334+01:002009-09-10T23:51:25.334+01:00Kresley Cole has a lots of similar elements: lots ...Kresley Cole has a lots of similar elements: lots of her heroes can't come except with their fated mate and she also walks the innocent/experienced tightrope by having experienced valkyries who've chosen not to have sex for a millenium or so. So yes, the paranormal genre is great for letting you have your cake and eating it too.<br /><br />Interestingly her valkyries don't eat or (I think) menstruate either.<br /><br />Probably don't have unslightly body hair .... all in all very sanitised.Joanna Chambershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11008683032460114886noreply@blogger.com