tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post622547184918199741..comments2024-03-26T01:10:13.720+00:00Comments on Teach Me Tonight: Change We NeedE. M. Selingerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00426524354823232002noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-50997615970090740552011-08-24T21:41:50.810+01:002011-08-24T21:41:50.810+01:00I think the depiction of profound character change...<i>I think the depiction of profound character change/development is, to me, very appealing in a romance. [...] Is it the idea of love being transformative I find so appealing?</i><br /><br />I, on the other hand, find the idea of love being "transformative" distinctly unsettling and worrying. Well, not if it's only to a small degree and/or the change takes place gradually over a period of time and/or love merely encourages a trait that was already latent in someone. Obviously someone can suddenly become a lot happier, for example, if they discover that their love is requited. But a sudden and dramatic personality change makes me think of the effect that the combination of love and a serious head injury have on Louisa Musgrove (also in <i>Persuasion</i>):<br /><br /><i>I hope you think Louisa perfectly recovered now?"<br /><br />He answered rather hesitatingly, "Yes, I believe I do; very much recovered; but she is altered: there is no running or jumping about, no laughing or dancing; it is quite different. If one happens only to shut the door a little hard, she starts and wriggles like a young dab-chick in the water; and Benwick sits at her elbow, reading verses, or whispering to her, all day long."</i> (<a href="http://www.pemberley.com/etext/Persuasion/chapter22.htm" rel="nofollow">Chapter 22</a>)<br /><br />That said, there can be a semi-religious side to the depiction of love in the genre. <a href="http://jprstudies.org/2010/08/getting-a-good-man-to-love-popular-romance-fiction-and-the-problem-of-patriarchy-by-catherine-roach/" rel="nofollow">As Catherine Roach writes</a>:<br /><br /><i>The story of romance is the most powerful narrative in Western art and culture, sharing roots with Christianity and functioning as a mythic story about the meaning and purpose of life, particularly in regards to the HEA ending of redemption and wholeness.</i><br /><br />In that context it makes sense that love in the romance genre would sometimes be depicted as having a transformative effect similar to St Paul's conversion experience.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-25092472009988427302011-08-24T21:22:59.930+01:002011-08-24T21:22:59.930+01:00Oh, I certainly agree that Wentworth "has som...Oh, I certainly agree that Wentworth "has some lessons to learn" but (despite the sometimes rather severe consequences of his mistakes) they all seem to stem from his basic character, which is the kind that Anne prefers, and which doesn't change:<br /><br /><i>She prized the frank, the open-hearted, the eager character beyond all others. Warmth and enthusiasm did captivate her still. She felt that she could so much more depend upon the sincerity of those who sometimes looked or said a careless or a hasty thing, than of those whose presence of mind never varied, whose tongue never slipped.</i> (<a href="http://www.pemberley.com/etext/Persuasion/chapter17.htm" rel="nofollow">Chapter 17</a>)Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-24082035234752815302011-08-24T21:02:25.491+01:002011-08-24T21:02:25.491+01:00I've been thinking about this post a lot which...I've been thinking about this post a lot which is why it's taken me so long to comment. I think the depiction of profound character change/development is, to me, very appealing in a romance. For some reason, and I do struggle to put my finger on precisely why, it's satisfying. Is it the idea of love being transformative I find so appealing? Or is it that there's something about change that makes you feel that the story is more of a journey than, say, a visit to another world?<br /><br />I found myself agreeing with Sunita's comments about The Grand Sophy is more a comedy of manners for her - I remember enjoying it very much but it wasn't a book I felt delivered much of an emotional punch (which is what I want from a romance). That said, I agree with you that there are little things Sophy says that could be read as being rather poignant, and I <i>did</i> read them that way (although I think I have a tendancy to "read in" romance narratives even where they are not particularly present).<br /><br />Then I found myself thinking about a recent romance in which the characters really didn't change at all that I liked very much: Muscling Through by JL Merrow, a m/m romance set in Cambridge. <br /><br />So maybe you're4 on to something?Joanna Chambershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11008683032460114886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-46491988581096017432011-08-24T19:41:31.978+01:002011-08-24T19:41:31.978+01:00Ooh, I'd have to disagree with you that Captai...Ooh, I'd have to disagree with you that Captain Wentworth doesn't change. Or at least, he has some lessons to learn: don't flirt with girls without serious intent; yes, you're still angry and resentful even if you don't think you are and its affecting your judgment.<br /><br />Even Anne has learned (although maybe not in the actual book, although I think a case could be made) to stand up for herself.Sarah S. G. Frantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12806353006812086825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-57533731642847717882011-08-24T12:58:21.021+01:002011-08-24T12:58:21.021+01:00I think Sophie changes. She comes to see she needs...<i>I think Sophie changes. She comes to see she needs to be more moderate, or perhaps that she's no need any more to fix everyone. That people can fix themselves.</i><br /><br />She does find out that her father isn't at all unhappy that his fiancée has married another man, so that's one instance where she learns that "people can fix themselves," but even as she's dragged off by Charles at the end of the novel she's still giving instructions about redistributing the contents of her portmanteau...<br /><br /><i>Anti-change? Maybe it's an English thing.</i><br /><br />I wonder if a large study of reading preferences would turn up clear national/regional trends. I have the impression, for example, that Scottish readers show a stronger preference <a href="http://www.slainte.org.uk/news/mediacentre/archive/1002/plr2010.html" rel="nofollow">for crime fiction than for romance</a>.<br /><br /><i>Hi, I don't know where else I can say this, I stumbled across your blog by accident anyway, and I decided to leave a comment. I'm sorry it's not a comment about this post. Very sorry about that.</i><br /><br />SarahChan, I've forwarded your comment to Sandra, in case she doesn't see it here. I'm sure she'll be delighted to know that you enjoyed <i>Castle of the Wolf</i>. She does have a personal blog <a href="http://sandyschatterblog.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-16525052623719203902011-08-24T07:39:10.152+01:002011-08-24T07:39:10.152+01:00Hi, I don't know where else I can say this, I ...Hi, I don't know where else I can say this, I stumbled across your blog by accident anyway, and I decided to leave a comment. I'm sorry it's not a comment about this post. Very sorry about that.<br /><br />So I just bought your book Castle of The Wolf from ebay, and I enjoyed it very much. The words that always came out of my mouth was "Awww, poor Fenris T___T" lol. I like him, he's somewhat similar to my ex-boyfriend (low self-esteem + feels like he doesn't deserve to be loved) so I can totally relate the situation. The only thing that I don't understand is the usage of Germany words, like gnadige Frau. I'm from Malaysia, we don't learn Germany here XD I found out the meaning after I finished reading the book though. And throughout the whole reading I assumed the meaning was "good day" LMAO XD<br /><br />anyway it was an excellent book, totally worth my time and money. Thank you so much for writing it :)<br /><br />p/s: Sorry for my terrible English and sorry for the wrong comment section. You can delete this comment if you want >.<SarahChanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00178539319390718709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-27766953664589516042011-08-23T17:17:02.570+01:002011-08-23T17:17:02.570+01:00Fascinating subject, Laura. Though I can understan...Fascinating subject, Laura. Though I can understand a gut-level desire for change in the characters, I think it's sad if such things are becoming templates. Change? Tick. No change? Cross. That without regard to simple pleasure in the reading of the novel.<br /><br />Interesting about Americans valuing change. I do wonder if that's universal. History plays a part, but I suspect many modern Americans reckon they're happy where they are, so their reaction to novels might be different.<br /><br />As someone said, the process of forming a mating bond, especially with barriers to overcome, is bound to change anyone, but that can be gentle. I'm not overly keen on the repressed woman fighting to be free, anymore than I'm keen on the guy who needs to sort out his screwed up self because I'd rather have that happen before the book. I'm interested in the working to come together rather than personal change. It's all a question of what story we most enjoy.For me it's the romance.<br /><br />Many of my characters aren't seeking to change, but fighting to get back what they have lost. Anti-change? Maybe it's an English thing.<br /><br />I haven't read TGS in years, but I think Sophie changes. She comes to see she needs to be more moderate, or perhaps that she's no need any more to fix everyone. That people can fix themselves. She has been living an adventurous and sometimes dangerous life and finally can relax and just be. IMO.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />JoJo Beverleyhttp://www.jobev.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-70630002036364837302011-08-22T11:26:17.350+01:002011-08-22T11:26:17.350+01:00Kyra, I'd say that "the power of Austen&q...Kyra, I'd say that "the power of Austen" lies in her ability to make her characters come alive and seem very real. But then, it's Elinor I care about in <i>Sense and Sensibility</i> and I see a lot to admire in Fanny (even though we have very little in common).<br /><br /><i>My problem with Sophy is that she seems fundamentally unaffected by falling in love with Charles.</i><br /><br />One of the difficulties here is that I think it's possible Sophy may be hiding some of her feelings. It's difficult to be sure, though, because she's constantly putting on an act in order to manipulate other people.<br /><br />She knows that "It may be that with regard to Charles my stratagems may not succeed" (279) and, as she says to Charlbury, "I don't suppose [...] that I should ever advise anyone to despair, for I can't bear such poor-spirited conduct! (163). This being so, it seems to me that she might be feeling quite deeply about Charles and be quite distressed by the prospect that he will never be able to marry her, but she'd never give much sign of those feelings lest it appear "poor-spirited conduct" and/or spoil her plans.<br /><br />Thinking a bit more about love changing or at least affecting the characters, I remembered Betty Neels and the way in which her heroes often give almost no sign that they have any emotions while her heroines stoically carry on until the hero finally decides it's time to declare himself. There are variations in that pattern, of course, but in many of the Neels novels I've read there's not a lot of change in either her heroes or her heroines. And, now that I think about it, some of her heroines are not totally dissimilar to Fanny Price.<br /><br />---<br />Heyer, Georgette. <i>The Grand Sophy</i>. 1950. London: Arrow, 2004.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-58701460896476542992011-08-22T04:30:29.599+01:002011-08-22T04:30:29.599+01:00This is a fascinating post, and what a great set o...This is a fascinating post, and what a great set of quotes. I hadn't thought about the desire for change in this way, but I think you make a compelling case.<br /><br />For me, I'm not really looking for the heroine to change dramatically in her essential personality, but more expecting that falling in love will reveal new aspects of herself to herself. Or perhaps she'll access her other emotions in a different way. My problem with Sophy is that she seems fundamentally unaffected by falling in love with Charles. But then, I think TGS is more a comedy of manners (or farce) more than romance in the end.Sunitahttp://vacuousminx.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30203557.post-60075052544005167502011-08-22T04:05:32.379+01:002011-08-22T04:05:32.379+01:00Maybe the power of Austen is the fact her protagon...Maybe the power of Austen is the fact her protagonists, with few exceptions, grow/change. I know there was certainly change for Elizabeth and Darcy; they found out they were mistaken in their assumptions and they grew as people. Emma found out she was mistaken about everything, including herself, and grew up. Marianne changed more than Elinor, but I'd say Marianne grew enough for three characters, let alone for two. I wonder if that's why so many people don't like Mansfield Park all that much. Fanny is such a paragon that she doesn't change at all. It just comes about that her perfection is eventually rewarded.Kyra Kramernoreply@blogger.com